CDP Change Management Best Practices

Ryan Greene: 00:00
Hello and welcome back to another episode of ActionIQ happy hour. We are here today with some special guests and the same hosts as always. We'll go through a quick round of introductions in just a bit. But for those who don't know, a little bit about ourselves and about about this webinar series. We've been running this series now to just have a conversation about some of the topics that we hear about a lot from the market, from our clients, and from the field, and having a little bit more of an informal discussion session without slides, without too much formality. So - we are all from ActionIQ. We are an enterprise customer data platform. If you don't know what that is, you have been living under a rock. And we are here today to talk about CDP-driven change management, and we have a really important guest who knows a lot about this.

Ryan Greene: 00:54
Just a quick round of introductions. Myself, I'm Ryan Greene, Head of Product Marketing here at ActionIQ. I have with me, as always, James Meyers, our Director of Product Strategy at ActionIQ. And our special guest today is Liang Zhang. Thank you for coming all the way from the West Coast - your arms must be tired - who leads, he's the Director of our Client Engagement teams, which means he's basically in with the clients day in and day out, and he's obviously going to be the most interesting person for this topic. Sowith just a little bit of housekeeping notes, please, if you've dialed in, mute your lines, and just so you know, that we will be sending a recording of this after the webinar series also with a white paper. So, this is all this topic is based around a white paper that we've just published. We'll outline that a bit. We're not going to go in too much detail, so if you want to learn more, you can definitely look at that after the webinar series.

Ryan Greene: 01:50
So, without further ado what we'd like to do is actually first talk a little bit about the topic that we're going to talk about. And the reason we want to do that is to make sure everyone's on the same page of what actually this thing is, and why it's important, and what are some key considerations that we should know about before we jump too deep into a particular subject.

Ryan Greene: 02:09
So, first, what is it? What is change management? So, I think, probably, by its definition it's changeAnd really, how we see it it's the people and processes that surround the technology within your organization. And which leads us to the next question: why is this important? And from what we've seen, being on both sides, both on the client and on the vendor side, change is generally the hardest part of any thing that's changing with an organization, when you bring in a new technology when you bring in a new team, when you bring in a new process. And so it's always going to be the thing that makes the project work or the project fail. And, the way we think about it is, it generates the greatest FUD. FUD is "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt". And the technology can sound great, but if you have a lot of FUD around how this looks in your organization and whether or not your organization is ready to take it on, it's going to stop you from doing a lot of things that you may need to do and may want to do. So just a little bit more context before we jump in. I wanted to first talk to James real quickly from the marketing ecosystem. Your perspective...what are some of the key considerations when we're thinking about change management? It's a pretty big topic.

James Meyers: 03:25
Yeah. An enormous topic. And the way I'd like to help out first is, we're going to streamline today's discussion down to just focusing on CDPs, and specifically, the change management required to implement CDPs effectively. So we're not going to boil the ocean, and, instead, we're going to give you very actionable advice. The second thing on here is that we're going to show you some of our secret sauce. And I think that's fine. I think it's why we have Liang with us, but it's a big reason why ActionIQ is so successful. In fact, we haven't had a failed proof of concept in the last 18 months. We have a near perfect retention rate. And the reason why is because we have some pretty good secrets to share, right? What's critical for us to be honest about though, is that we recognize our technology alone is not a silver bullet. In fact, it's the combination of our technology along with our support services. And that's the simple answer. And so, if you think about one of the biggest pitfalls that organizations go through today, it's that they fail to evaluate vendors on both their technology and their strategic support. They need to be a trusted advisor. And so I'll pause there. Those are the big key considerations that I wanted to bring up thus far. Make sense?

Ryan Greene: 04:46
Anything you want to add?

Liang Zhang: 04:47
Absolutely. Yeah.I just think this topic, it's really, really something that we on the services side and team really think about from an engagement perspective, because oftentimes, the technology, once we are actually deployed and we're going live with use cases, that's really exciting. Oftentimes, the key to scaling is what does the rest of the organization have to do? The white paper actually does an amazing job of kind of outlining some of these secrets, which we'll bring to life today, but that's why I care about this topic so much. It's because it gets you from that starting point all the way to your compelling reason for the transformation to begin with.

Ryan Greene: 05:27
Yeah. I think maybe you said this yesterday, when we were talking about this, is you're in these meetings with these executives and everyone's talking about how great the technology is, and what you're seeing in their eyes is "How is this going to look at my organization? Is my organization actually ready to take this on?". What we think we're talking about is not actually the major concern of most executives and most organizations.

Liang Zhang: 05:47
That's right. It's 80% of what we typically are talking about, about that are about the technology. But the 80% of what the executives in the room are thinking, is "What does this mean for my business processes and what does this mean for my people?". Full stop. So, that's why this is such an important topic, and technology can be an enabler to having that conversation, but it's not the silver bullet.

Ryan Greene: 06:09
Perfect. Okay. So, let's just jump into the topic then right now. And like we said, we're probably going to be referencing this a few times. We did just publish a white paper. So, the way we're going to structure this conversation is kind of step through some of the key sections within that white paper. And then let Liang talk about specifically some of the examples and some of these sections that he's dealt with clients and you know, some real client examples that will help bring this to life.

Ryan Greene: 06:36
So really what we see, or what's in the white paper, is kind of five key areas. And I'll just kind of outline those first, and we'll start walking through those. So the first one is when you're thinking about CDP change management, you want to start with your goals and your outcomes versus what the thing is. And so this is what, this is what we say, "the why before the how." So why are you actually doing this as an organization? And that's what's going to get you the alignment and the sponsorship across the organization that is going to get you to the how. If you just dive into the how and everyone doesn't know why you're doing something, most likely you're going to install and you're not going to have the momentum or the buy-in behind you to be able to actually keep this thing moving forward. And so the four things that we think about on with goals and outcomes is make sure you have a clear business case. Why are you doing this and what do you expect the outcomes to be? Make sure you have a long term vision because again, this is a strategic decision that you're making for the organization, both from a technology perspective, but there can be a huge effort and strategic decisions that need to be made within the actual organization around teams and technologies. Start to then work your way backwards from that vision into actually putting a roadmap in place and then be very clear to the organization about what those key success metrics are. Because if everyone's not clear, then you can't really measure are you getting closer to this thing or not? Right. Anything you guys want to add around that?

Liang Zhang: 08:00
I think, I think those are exactly right. The main message is you have to have, in order to do a change effectively, you have to have a compelling reason for the change, right? Right. Because inertia and just kind of basic human psychology is averse to change. And so that point about the long term vision the business uses, all of that is just to say what is the compelling reason for change? And then how do you work backwards to put together the plan? And so some of the tips we'll share as we go through this are how to get there. But you have to start with that.

Ryan Greene: 08:35
Yeah. And one more quick thing about this is when we see companies who start with a kind of a checklist of capabilities versus a checklist of business cases and priorities, those generally fail at a much higher rate than people who have a clear business understanding why they're doing something. Okay. So the next one is what we call defining jobs to be done, not roles within the organization. So one of the key questions that we get all the time is, okay, if I bring a CDP in, what are the job roles or job descriptions that I need to build around this thing? So that it can work. Because this is a new technology, and new processes that doesn't tend to exist within companies today. So really what we think, what we, what we say in the white paper is that if you're looking at this from an organizational, like deciding on your roles, that's a very organizational-centric approach to a customer-centric problem that you're trying to solve. So really think about not the roles, but what are the tasks that need to be executed against this new process and this new technology, and therefore what are the skills that are required to support those tasks. But it's also super important to understand at what time in the implementation and scaling process with the organization do you need those skills? Because you may have a high effort upfront around maybe some technology tasks that will peter off over time as you get to be much more self service.

James Meyers: 9:57
So, what you're saying is oftentimes people jump to wanting to hire roles and quite frankly, they, immediately look as a solution for the person instead of looking at the tasks that they need to be hiring a person to do. Exactly. That makes a lot of sense. And when we think about the steps in the process, do you think that combining all of those tasks into a job description, that's not the first step and maybe the last step, if you need to hire more people, you take the tasks, you need the skills, you package those into a job description, but it's not step one. Right?

Liang Zhang: 10:33
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the other thing too, is as you think about these jobs to be done, it is a good idea-- and we talk more about this in the white paper--to really do that bit of gap analysis, right? You have to start with what are the roles that we're going to potentially need, what are the jobs that need to be done? And then you look across your organization at who do you have today? Maybe there are some gaps there and maybe there's some processes that you need to fill in. But without that first to kind of step along the planning process you're jumping directly into functionality and then that could lead to all kinds of problems down the line.

Ryan Greene: 11:08
Yeah. And to the point of gap analysis, once you identify those gaps, you do have several options on filling those gaps, right? You can hire those people, you can look for your vendor to support you on filling those gaps, or you could, contract those out through some consulting partners. So understand the gaps but first understanding what are the tasks and the skills and then you kind of work your way back to, okay, how do we solve this in the short and long term?

James Meyers: 11:33
Yep. Brilliant.

Ryan Greene: 11:34
Okay. So, getting into the third section. So, this is about what we describe as organizational maturity. And so, this is when you think about your organization, the way that it is structured, how mature are you in this new customer centric model? And we've identified kind of three types of organizations,rom what we call channel-centric to journey-centric and into the end goal, which is customer-centric. And we interact with clients across the entire spectrum. And Liang's gonna jump into some stories about that. But the way that you can think about if you're trying to understand where your organization is on that spectrum is think about how are your teams and the tools that you use are structured across the organization. And so if you think about channel-centric, you can think about having teams and tools deployed specifically against specific channels, right? So, you have an email team, you have an email tool, you have a web team, you have a web tool. So, you have all of these kind of redundant technology and teams and processes, across all the channels, because that's kind of how most organizations were built up. They just kept adding channels, which means they added teams and tools around that, which is fine, but you want to start to move towards a customer centric. And generally between channel and total customer centric model is what we call journal journey-centered model. Journey centric model generally is building teams and tools around particular customer life cycle stages or journeys. So, maybe you have an onboarding team and tools, maybe you have a retention teams and tools. Maybe you have an acquisition team and tools. Now, again, these are kind of focused on maybe one or more channels, but they're really focused around particular customer journeys from point A to point B. And then once that person or that customer leaves that journey, they go into a different journey, right? And then you did another team and tool is kind of responsible for taking them over from there.

Ryan Greene: 13:26
Now, you're getting closer obviously to the customer centric model, which is building teams and tools around the customer and then being able to use channels and tactics around the entire customer life cycle, the entire customer life cycle stage and just centralize that institutional knowledge into one team and one set of tools so that you're reducing redundancy, increasing your knowledge of the customer and where they're trying to go to and the way that you can actually interact with them when you're trying to provide better experiences across the entire life cycle. So, with that saidI want to kind of kick it over to Liang because you've actually helped customers kind of make a path from where they are today to customer-centric. So, maybe you can provide some color around what does that look like and how do clients think about it and what are some best practices?

Liang Zhang: 14:19
Yeah, let's dig in and I'll start with the most, I find, the most interesting part, which is what are the compelling reasons for change that we typically see? And it's typically some sort of transformation, right? That the company is going through. Now I look at it in kind of two broad buckets. One is it is this move to being more customer centric, right? As an organization. And that means having a consistent message and relationship with the customer across all these different channels. And we'll dig into that a lot. The other is business model innovation. So, as we see more and more companies move into a subscription type of business, what does that mean? There's all kinds of business rationale for why that happens. And there's plenty of published articles on that. But, what it means actually is, now you're having all of these micro touchpoints with customers across all these new life cycle stages that need to be made consistent. And you have existing processes and technology that is focused on one channel. So, one team is being told "I need to be more customer-centric" and another team has been told "I need to be customer-centric". And they're not actually coordinating what that means. Right? The business model is changing on them. And all of these, you know, most of our customers, some of them are already subscription businesses. So, a lot of them, what they're trying to get to is how do I think more audience-first in my marketing? And that just means thinking about critical segments and how do I move critical segments to either, you know, higher retention or higher engagement. If it's a subscription business, more active users, right? Those kinds of metrics are really, really critical for them. Others who are just going through this transformation for the first time. They're like, "I don't really know how to think about the customer experience. I know I need to onboard. But what does that mean?". And they look for a lot of guidance around how we can help bring best practices in that case, round these critical stages. So, it's first framing what those stages are. And then to your point, the most critical piece, and I think this then gets into our last point on best practices, is having a framework for thinking about how you get from where you are now to where you ultimately want to be, which is coordinated journeys, cross channel omnichannel, customer touch points that are across, not just email, push notifications, paid social, but all the way through to the customer care center. And other channels that any point where the customer could have a relationship with your brand, right? So, one of these frameworks happens to be value mapping, which is another point that we were going to bring up. And I can go into more specifics around best practices, pitfalls to avoid. But it might be good to introduce the concept of value mapping.

Ryan Greene: 17:09
Yeah, definitely. There's a blog that also came out that talks about the kind of the genesis of value mapping here at ActionIQ. And, I think we've learned we were almost as surprised as a technology company that customers would ask us and look for us to provide them these frameworks around how to change their organizational model and processes. But, having done this a few times now, we definitely understand where it's coming from and, you know, it's an impetus to make the actual purchase and bring it in. But it's also like you said, to scale that within the organization. Maybe a follow up question on kind of moving to this customer centeric model, what do you see as the things within an organization that is that kind of impetus to move them forward and that is there that maybe internally that they need to have in place before they can actually start to shift the way they think about their customer, the way they treat their customer.? Is it the executive sponsorship? Is it a new team that's just focused purely on the customer? Where do you see, what have you seen with clients to make this a little bit more successful?

Liang Zhang: 18:25
Yeah. And this is, this is where, you know, James and I have talked about this a lot. You, you do need all those things. First of all, you do need the exec executive sponsorship. I mean, the role of the executives are really to be the main champions for the change, to embrace it, to reiterate it, to make sure that it's getting, actually moving things forward. But to your point, what needs to be in place, actually this is where it's a little bit counterintuitive. And just to be clear ActionIQ, you know, we, there are plenty of firms that do organizational design, business process transformation and consulting. We're not that, right? But this question comes up a lot and what I think is super, super interesting is, actually, most companies that we work with have a lot of the pieces already, right? It doesn't mean you have to be either have a centralized core team or have decentralized but very coordinated,channel specific teams, which we've seen it work across all kinds of different org models. The jobs to be done framework is helpful because that's just looking at, okay, well how close are those jobs? You know, the people who need to get that job done, how well are they coordinated today or not? That's part of the gap analysis. If they're not coordinated at all, maybe that's a great place to start with. And that's where, and I'll skip ahead a little to one of my kind of tips here. You need to have champions and change agents within all of these teams, whether it's centralized or decentralized. And a rule of thumb is, you typically want it to be a middle manager. Why? Because they're close enough to the work, and they're also close enough to the executive input and guidance and steering. And typically, what we find is one change agent per about 10 to 20 team members, depending on the size of the organization. It's typically where you want to have it. One person for a massive transformation. Yes, they can focus and own it, but you really need to plant those change agents throughout, especially in areas where the current collaboration that needs to happen isn't as close as you would want it today.

Ryan Greene: 20:32
Yeah. What's your thoughts on whether to try to start small in one team and kind of prove out a new model and then scale it out versus take the big bang approach and say, "Hey, we're, we're totally overhauling everything".

Liang Zhang: 20:48
Oh man, that's, that's a great question. Not an easy question either. I mean, James, you want to, you have any thoughts? I can tell a couple of stories about

James Meyers: 20:54
There's a quick one, at least that I've seen, from ideas as a practitioner is to start small. I've worked at enormous organizations with two hundred and fifty thousand two hundred seventy five thousand employees and it's impossible. It's like the big ship. You need to deal with, create momentum. And so I think that's the big takeaway there is start small with one or two teams. Employ the change agents as you said at the manager level who can actually observe whether employees are enacting those new behaviors that you're asking for, and then report back up. And if they're not, then you may need to have new motivation or new accountability. But that often comes from feedback from my manager. Does that make sense?

Liang Zhang: 21:38
100% that's it. Look, you can do a big bang approach. I'm not saying you can't, but oftentimes you know it's better to get going because you're going to learn. That's why you want these change agents. They change. You just could also change in the sense that they take feedback from what works and what doesn't work. But if you don't do that early and quick enough, one of the biggest pitfalls is just imagining this is all going to be one big shot and you're going to get there. It's just never happened that way. People always ask, we show these kind of journey horizons to get to the end state. And the question we always get to get is how long is this going to take? How long is it going to take, what about from one to two and two? It's like, well, you know, it's a long process.

Liang Zhang: 22:19
First of all it's, it can be multi-year. But you know, the saying, you know, you won't be perfect to start, but you can't get to perfect if you don't start. Right. So you kind of have this think about what are the, I like to say, create some early wins to build momentum. That's just a kind of a best practice tip. Put in places things where you can demonstrate to the rest of the organization. For example, a lot of times we'll we deploy our CDP, it's about what are the one or two kind of use cases, journeys campaigns that we can run to demonstrate to the rest of the organization that, look, we can get these two different teams to coordinate on one customer experience and to get that done in a very quick timeframe really builds a lot of momentum. Then we go from there.

Ryan Greene: 23:10
Yeah, no, I think the momentum is key, right? Like, if you're going to go for the big bang and a lot of things have to be in place, you have to wait for everybody to be ready to go. And then you're six months in and nothing has actually been accomplished at this point yet. And then, you know, the executive may change their mind. You may have a bad quarter, or you may, some people may leave and then you're basically your same place you were 12 months ago at this point. So, I think, the idea of it doesn't need to be perfect, but you do need to get something in. You need to show wins and you need to be able to show that this is a process or a model that can be scaled to the rest of the organization to have that kind of visibility into, how do we get this out across the organization? Because it's all about, at the end of the day, if it doesn't leave that one team, it's also kind of pointless. Right? Like you need that scale to get, to make it all worth it. Did you want to add something?

James Meyers: 24:04
Yeah. I was just gonna say, about the quick wins, right? It's kind of a buzzword, but it's really important for this reason. There's going to be frustrations in any deployment or any digital transformation.

Ryan Greene: 24:15
Really?

James Myers: 24:15
And what we laugh about that because we hear about them all the time and the reality is that you need those quick wins to be reference points such that when the frustration does occur, people can go, yeah, we understand that it's not working exactly as planned, but look, we already accomplished this than this. So it's not, it's not like a failed effort. You already have that kind of forgiveness.

Ryan Greene: 24:39
You have to build, I think that's a good point. You have to build. Wins build trust, or confidence, that gets you through the inevitable dips. Right. Okay. So,Moving on to kind of like what we call key learnings, risks, best practices. There's a bunch in the white paper, so you should definitely go through that. But I'm going to highlight one, but I also want to let Liang kind of take his chance out again. But what we hear in one a lot is "we have a weak data foundation or our data isn't ready to for something like a CDP to be deployed. So, you know, we're going to wait". That's definitely a concern. It's definitely something you should think about, but it's definitely not something that should keep you from moving forward. And, the way to mitigate that risk is to actually, again, don't boil the ocean, figure out what are the use cases that you want to get those quick wins on. And then work your way backwards to, what are the data sets that I need to get that quick win, right? It's definitely going to be a very small set, most likely of all the data that you have. And then you can focus on that data to make sure that it's in decent enough shape, that it's clean, that it's in the right place and that it's going to be in the hands of the right teams, so that you can do that quick win,, and then deploy and learn, and then go back and repeat this same process, so that you can pick the next use cases that you want and figure where that data is. So definitely, probably one of the most frequent things that we hear is "my data's not in place or I don't have the perfect view of the customer. So I don't think, I think I should probably wait." Definitely is not something that you should be thinking about when you're thinking about "Do I do something?". But, I know that you have some more people-based risks and mitigation techniques that we can think about.

Liang Zhang: 26:28
Yeah. And, I think, keep in mind that during one of these transformations, whether it's labeled better, not the people are going to be thinking, what's going to happen to me. That's the number one thing on team members' minds. What's going to happen to me? What's my role gonna evolve, what am I going to be doing on a day to day basis? These are the things from a leadership perspective that you need to think through. One of the things, counterintuitive kind of tips I like to share is, when you're putting together your change plan for the first time, don't forget to focus on what stays the same. So, it's a change management principle, right? And it's broader than just CDP, but it applies here as well. Technology is changing, processes are changing. Maybe roles are even changing. There's a new team for CDP. All of a sudden people are like, what's going to happen to me? And so, I've heard this be called a stability plan, but always ensure that there is some stability within the organization even as all this other changes happening. And then that layered on with the quick wins of building momentum, that's probably the best start you can ask for, right? From a people perspective. So that's number one. I'll share one or two other ones and then we'll let it go from there. One other thing that I find is interesting and it's a hard nut to crack is, who gets credit and who gets blame when this new way of working goes right or wrong?

Ryan Greene: 27:52
That was the question I was going to ask you.

Liang Zhang: 27:54
That's the hard one. And oftentimes, we find that our customers haven't yet thought through that And that's not their fault. It's hard to envision this new world, but it's a risk mitigation factor, right? If this campaign, this multichannel journey goes well, who's going to be able to say, "Hey, yeah, you know, we did this", and it should be the answer should be that it's the collective team. But it's not always that easy when you're starting from a channel-specific organization, as a lot of our customers start from.

Liang Zhang: 28:27
And the third one, and maybe the biggest one is, you've got to focus on accountability and you've got to focus on governance. Governance is a huge topic. We could go all day on just governance. But the role of the senior leadership after the change has started is to hold people accountable. That is their number one goal. And do not let the message and the story change if, if the compelling reason to change is that we need to get to this end point, right? So, that's a little bit harder, but it's, those change agents in those kind of roles that we talked about, change champions, that's also where they're reporting back, how they're doing, how the team is doing.

Liang Zhang: 29:38
Got it. Got it. Well, one of the things that happens right away with a CDP is you get productivity gains because now you know, no longer does the marketer have to spend days or sometimes weeks getting to the data, running the query, getting to the segment, executing, the whole workflow. They can do that out of the CDP. So oftentimes, at least on the core team, working team level, it's measuring those productivity gains because they're early wins, but they also are holding people accountable. Are they doing things in a new way? Have we changed the way of working or are we still doing things the same? That's number one. But bigger than that, think about what we talked about earlier. If productivity improves, what are people thinking? "Uh-oh, What's going to happen to my role?" So, where does the senior management come in at this stage? And that's really to show and demonstrate, ideally ahead of time, that, hey, you now have the time and the capacity to work on things that are more meaningful for the business. That is the point, because you didn't get hired to run custom ad hoc requests and inquiries all day. You were hired to do some really interesting complex work on complex problems. Right? So, that's the framing and the measuring that you need to do at that level to ensure that the change is having the desired effect and the desired outcome.

James Meyers: 31:11
So, it's almost like you have a maybe a quarterly, or a half year update, you know what you're saying, how much did our productivity improve and how much of that time was reallocated to special projects, whether they be innovations or new problem solving, more automation, things of that approach? Did I do a good job of summarizing?

Liang Zhang: 31:32
100%. And back to kind of the value mapping, the whole point of value mapping is to understand the business impact. So of course you're measuring that, too.

Ryan Greene: 31:40
To try to bring it back to, there's the point isn't at the end of the day to have just people work half days, right? You want that time to be spent adding value to the business. And the one thing I was gonna add to that is, I mean there's plenty of studies out there, McKinsey, and we've seen it with our own clients, is the way that you add value is by trying new things, right? Like iterating, building new use cases, learning from the things that you've deployed and then modifying that to be better. Right? And what they've seen is that four to five iterations of a single use case, you get twice the value you would if you just weren't only had time to launch at once and not do anything with it. Right? And so that's where their productivity starts to translate into business value because you're actually freeing people up to actually do analytics and understand what went wrong, what went right, and actually do something about it, take action on it. Which, when you have more time, and you have the ability to take action on the fly, that's where you start to see the value from customer side because you're actually providing a better customer experience. Right? It's not like the first time you're going to get it exactly right. You need to put it out there. You need to run a test and you need to measure it and you need to improve on it. And that's where the actual business value is manifested.

Liang Zhang: 32:53
And one of the thing that's a little bit harder to measure is ultimately every company wants their employees to-make better data driven decisions. And oftentimes we see that in terms of this concept of being audience-first, do I really, how much do I understand about my key segments and what decisions am I actually making to impact those key segments in the areas that matter? And that's something that's can, should be done up front to map back the business outcomes and the impact. But it needs to be well thought out.

Ryan Greene: 33:28
One last thing I wanted to mention because I just thought of when you were talking was change overall, but change for CDP looks very different at a larger organization than it does at a smaller organization as well. So, there is no blueprint that say this is exactly how you run it because you may not have the people today that do these things that need to change their job. This may be a completely new process, a completely new team within the organization. This is where we go back to tasks, skills, mapping to your organization. So you know, however big you are, however small you are as an organization, you have to be able to run that process to figure out what this looks like for you.

Ryan Greene: 34:09
Okay. We are a little bit at post time, but what we want to do is just close with a couple of resources that we think would be helpful for people who are trying to learn more about this topic. Obviously we will, like we said, we'll be passing along this recording as well as our newly-published white paper on CDP change management best practices. So, if you go to our website, you can also find that as well. Value mapping, we kind of teed it up, but we didn't talk too much about it, but there will be more material coming out about value mapping. If you want to learn more, obviously you can always reach out to us. We have a really experienced colleague who runs that practice for us and it's a very structured process to kind of walk through all of the steps that we just talked about today. And again if you guys have any questions, you can always reach out to us myself, James, or anybody else on the team, and we're happy to have a conversation with you.

Ryan Greene: 35:02
So, James, thank you once again for a great hour.

James Myers: 35:08
I looked at the time I go, "Oh man, it's already over. I want to do more". That's because it was such good conversation.

Ryan Greene: 35:14
And, Liang, thank you again for joining us.

Liang Zhang 35:16
Thank you for having me.

Ryan Greene: 35:16
It's been great.

Liang Zhang: 35:18
Awesome.

Ryan Greene: 35:18
Thank you. Thank you all. Thanks guys.